My email to Scythe complaining about the Rev. B Ninja

[Ryan Norton]

Hello Scythe,

I have just sent the email posted below to your support department, hoping it would find it way through your company. I'm reprinting it here because I notice replies tend to come rather quickly, and I'm eager to receive a response. Here it is (I did a better proofreading job here):

Dear Scythe,

I must very regretfully express my complete dissatisfaction with the revised version (SCNJ-1100P) of your excellent CPU heatsink, the Ninja.

In 2005 after reading Silent PC Review's article about the original SCNJ-1000 Ninja ( Scythe SCNJ-1000 Ninja heatsink | silentpcreview.com) I decided to purchase one to improve the cooling of my Socket 939 Athlon 64 3500+ system. Its performance was exceptional and the product satisfied me in every way.

In 2006 I assembled a new PC using an Intel Core 2 Duo E6400 and Asus P5B Deluxe motherboard. I had unfortunately lost the LGA775 socket kit that came with my original Ninja (or perhaps the Ninja did not include an LGA775 mount; I don't remember) so I purchased the Scythe Universal Retention Kit from Newegg.com. Again, performance of the Ninja was fantastic and met the very high expectations I had after my year of using the Ninja with my old AMD system. My CPU's idle temperatures were around 36-38 degC and load temperatures rarely rose much over 45-46 degC.

Your Ninja had worked so well for me in two PCs that when my parents asked me to provide a new PC for them, I purchased a new Ninja to fit onto my old AMD system, which I was going to give them. At this time the SCNJ-1100P Ninja Plus Rev. B was the only Ninja available. When I went to mount it on my old AMD motherboard, an Abit KN8-SLI, I found that the orientation of the "long" and "short" heatpipes had been reversed, with the result that several capacitors near the 939 socket interfered with the "long" heatpipe side of the Ninja. A diagram of the problem is attached to this email.

Very disappointed that I could not employ the new Ninja in its intended system, I decided to "give up" my old Ninja and install it in the system I was assembling for my parents, which, as I already mentioned, used a motherboard on which the Ninja had already been proven to work. Obviously therefore I had then to install the new Rev B Ninja on my P5B-based Intel system, using the new 4-pushpin mounting system similar to the stock Intel solution, as opposed to the convenient and effective backplate plus mounting rails included in the Universal Retention Kit.

Upon succeeding in installing the Rev B Ninja, I immediately noticed that both idle and load CPU temperatures were higher than with the "old" Ninja, to the tune of 5-6 degC. In other words, the CPU that had previously been idling in a 75 degF room in a well-designed and -cooled Antec P180B case around 37 degC was now idling around 44-45 degC, and at load always broke the 50 degC barrier. This was performance functionally identical to the stock Intel cooler, whose primary advantage over the Rev. B Ninja was that it did NOT cost me $39.99.

I have since completely removed and remounted the Rev. B Ninja no less than five times. I have also changed the speed and position of the three 120mm fans in my case -- intake, exhaust, and on the Ninja -- and the Ninja's Rev B performance has not reliably improved. This situation has regrettably led me to remove the old, original Ninja from my parent's 939 system, reinstall the stock AMD cooler there, and replace the old Ninja in my Intel system. Now, I must search for an alternative cooling solution from one of your competitors, probably Thermalright's XP-90 which I positively know will fit on my Abit 939 motherboard, to employ in my parents' PC.

In summary, the Rev. B version of your originally wonderful Ninja has thoroughly disappointed me -- and numerous others on the internet, if you check the Silent PC Review forums: silentpcreview.com | View Forum - CPU Cooling
silentpcreview.com | View topic - Semi-poll of Core 2 Duo Ninja users

The Rev B Ninja is now sitting in its box waiting to be listed on eBay or otherwise resold, so that I can try to get some of my money back while I search for an alternative. I would like to thank you for the outstanding experience I've had with the original Ninja, but encourage you to take my comments into account when considering a theoretical Rev. C version of your product. Thank you in advance for your consideration.

Best,
Ryan Norton

[tacc]

Thank you very much for your inquiry and trust in Scythe items.
We are glad to receive your message and hearing about your
experiences with our products.

The difference between the Revision A. and revision B. is not concerning
only the clip but also a new base-plate and the way heatpipes
are soldered. But even they have changed this is not automatically
the reason for the performance difference. There are many factors
which are influencing the performance of a heatsink or generally
a product. I would like to bring up some of these facts to describe
in hopes of your understanding on the problems not only us, but
every CPU cooler manufacture should have.

1. CPU Integrated Heat Spreader (IHS)

The IHS is made of copper and is therefor also never a hundred
percent plain. Most users do not know about this fact and simply
blame CPU Cooler manufacturer to be the only ones responsible for
temperatures but tests indicate that there is a 5°C to 10°C
difference after sanding and finishing the IHS. The Ninja PLUS
base can not be a hundred percent plain as well, but you have
to also consider that you are trying to get a good contact of
two copper plates to transfer heat. This is giving you a slight
tolerance in performance. Also this is why you have a different
CPU temperature with same model of motherboard.

2. Heatpipes
The performance of a Heatpipe depends on the production and
can have a tolerance of -/+5%. If you consider that Ninja PLUS
has 6 Heatpipes, this could have some influence. Furthermore this
is a point we can not influence. I hope for your understanding.

3. Temperatures Measurement
I'm not sure if you have considered the room/ambient temperature
difference for your measurement. New Intel "Core 2" and AMD "Athlon 64"
support a different way of measurement of temperatures, which are
measured by using a sensor close to the core and not somewhere on/in
the motherboard.

4. The Retention
We apologize that the Heatpipes direction has changes but this is
something we can not change because of the clip. One possibility
is the use of a Ninja PLUS Rev. B Socket 478 clip and the former
socket 939 retention clip. This would allow you to turn the Ninja
PLUS by 90° and have the Heatpipes the way around. We can ship
this retention module for the socket 939 to you free of charge.
This would allow you to use the Ninja for the socket 939 and
solve the problem.

Hope this helped you out.

[EndoSteel]

Ryan Norton
When I went to mount it on my old AMD motherboard, an Abit KN8-SLI, I found that the orientation of the "long" and "short" heatpipes had been reversed, with the result that several capacitors near the 939 socket interfered with the "long" heatpipe side of the Ninja.
The only solution is to buy another URK. I don't know why, but the S478 retention bracket is the only one of the three included in the Ninja rev. B package that has 8 mounting holes and can be screwed to the base in any orientation.

tacc
Another complaint about the pushpin mechanism... How many more will it take to change anything?

[tacc]

We are using pushpin mechanism because there were excessive amount of request to make it so that users can install the Scythe cpu coolers w/o taking out the motherboard itself.
I'm not gonna say its working out for everyone out there, but you can't deny the fact that there are lots of users that are satisfied with push pins. Not to mention the push pin is by far the best solution in installing CPU Coolers securely w/o having to take out the motherboard itself.

I know I'm one of the satisfied user for sure, I was able to successfully replac my Arctic Freezer 7 pro to Ninja 1100P rev b. without having to disassemble my pc.

[Shinigami]

Hey everyone,

I step on side of tacc here. I mentioned it before and things won't change that easy.

There are at least 2 sides and we always hear the side that complains, the satisfied people usually don't say much, because they agree on our work. So if we add URK01 price increase and other will complain. It is simply impossible to comply to everyone's wish though we try our best to do so, that's how the world is and we try to satisfy everyone's demand/request as far as it is possible for us. I really hope that people are reading this and understand what we try to say here.

It is easy to complain and yell things out w/o knowing reasons or thinking. I really hope to meet more user's understainding by explaning, talking and answering ASAP. We do our best to support you guys, we actually really care about you, even after you bought our products

Greetings,
Andy

[EndoSteel]

Ok, I got the point . But is it possible at least to make all three brackets look like the one for S478? Extra screw holes. I mean.

[Shinigami]

Hi,

yep it is possible, but it is useless! The heatpipes need a specific angle to be used and that makes them pretty long on base-side. So if you turn the clips you won't be able to use them, because they will press themself against the heatpipes (and even most likely damage the heatpipes). Socket 775 has the option, but it the socket is square anyways. After all only AM2/939 clip is not compatible to be turned and screwed, that's something we can not change, sorry.

Greetings,
Andy

[EndoSteel]

Oops... You're right, my bad. Heh, it must be really hard work to design retention mechanisms . Interesting, however.

[Shinigami]

Thanks for your understanding. We are working on our side to improve everything, unfortunately this takes a bit of time. If you have any questions, let me know.

Andy

[DragonOptical]

Wow, after reading Ryan Norton's mail/post I can only say one thing: I'm glad I have the original SCNJ-1000 Ninja in my possession (but it must be frustrating for people who have the Rev. B of the Ninja), because next week I will upgrade my Athlon X2 setup to a Core 2 Duo setup (I just need the Scythe Universal Retention Kit).